Episode 6 - Theodore Roosevelt National Park

1 00:00:02,017 --> 00:00:05,412 Valerie Rie Naor, welcome the talk to the talk about Teddy Podcast. 2 00:00:05,862 --> 00:00:06,282 Thank you. 3 00:00:06,287 --> 00:00:07,212 Thanks for having me. 4 00:00:09,047 --> 00:00:12,117 yeah, it's great to get you on and we, have a lot to talk about today. 5 00:00:12,117 --> 00:00:14,577 I guess first of First I was curious, how is it is it. 6 00:00:14,817 --> 00:00:28,982 uh, Theodore Roosevelt is the only person to a national park named in his honor? I mean, when did this idea originate? so the park was an idea that was born probably in the 1920s. 7 00:00:29,582 --> 00:00:32,612 There were a lot of thoughts about tourism at that time. 8 00:00:32,612 --> 00:00:42,422 North Dakota had little, if any, tourism, and there were other national parks that were starting to attract automobile tourists as well as train tourists. 9 00:00:43,052 --> 00:00:43,562 And it. 10 00:00:43,892 --> 00:00:46,862 Was thought that it would be nice to make a national park in North Dakota. 11 00:00:46,862 --> 00:00:53,812 And so there were a lot of people that were pushing for that from the tourism standpoint and the economic standpoint. 12 00:00:54,382 --> 00:00:58,012 They thought it would be a great idea, and so there was a. 13 00:00:58,672 --> 00:01:08,122 An organization called the National Park Highway Association of North Dakota, and then the Roosevelt Memorial Park Association in the 1920s. 14 00:01:08,122 --> 00:01:12,622 And they both pushed to have a national park established in that area. 15 00:01:13,572 --> 00:01:20,292 A lot of things went into that, and there was a lot of back and forth between the federal government and the state government and these private entities. 16 00:01:20,922 --> 00:01:37,712 But in about 1933, the State Historical Society of North Dakota got the, Civilian Conservation Corps to come to the Medora area and to start building some infrastructure in and around the, what is now Theodore Roosevelt National Park. 17 00:01:38,342 --> 00:01:45,752 And the CCC was there and later the the ERA and the WPA, some of those alphabet groups. 18 00:01:45,782 --> 00:01:49,472 And so they built some structures and roads and such., 19 00:01:50,527 --> 00:01:56,782 so were they thinking about, uh, originally this could have just been uh, a state park versus the national park, Yes. 20 00:01:56,782 --> 00:02:02,152 There was a lot of discussion about that and at this, at the start of it. 21 00:02:03,352 --> 00:02:10,432 It was, thought it, it might be a national park, but the National Park Service wasn't keen on it at that time. 22 00:02:11,122 --> 00:02:14,992 And it became eventually a recreational demonstration area. 23 00:02:15,382 --> 00:02:27,502 And there were a number of these around the country and the idea was that the National Park Service would give money an expertise to improve these areas, and then they would become state managed a lot of them anyway. 24 00:02:27,757 --> 00:02:28,177 Mm-Hmm. 25 00:02:28,552 --> 00:02:29,812 And so that was an idea. 26 00:02:30,292 --> 00:02:33,022 For Theodore Roosevelt National Park area as well. 27 00:02:33,352 --> 00:02:40,072 And so the, the federal government, the National Park Service, thought that it would become a state park eventually. 28 00:02:40,462 --> 00:02:49,432 And at one point they even put up a sign somewhere that said Roosevelt State Park, but it never was a state park and the state really wanted it to be a federal park. 29 00:02:49,972 --> 00:02:52,942 And so there was a lot of back and forth in those days. 30 00:02:53,362 --> 00:02:57,989 And It was called the Roosevelt Regional State Park for a while, Wow. 31 00:02:58,022 --> 00:03:05,462 but it never really was that, so eventually it became a National Memorial Park and then much later a national park. 32 00:03:05,762 --> 00:03:14,837 So that is probably the origin as far as how it became to be named as a national park after a person Mm-Hmm. 33 00:03:15,544 --> 00:03:16,262 you mentioned you. 34 00:03:16,534 --> 00:03:25,444 C, and I know if you go to the Canyon or the ra, the south unit, you can find a can find a lot of the structure there. 35 00:03:25,467 --> 00:03:25,977 still there. 36 00:03:26,037 --> 00:03:29,704 The welcome signs, Old East entrance down in right? unit. 37 00:03:30,517 --> 00:03:31,137 That's correct. 38 00:03:31,757 --> 00:03:38,517 We call those pylons, those, Oh, I think of a pylon as something that you put so you don't crash into something with your car. 39 00:03:38,937 --> 00:03:41,427 But we do call those historic pylons. 40 00:03:41,442 --> 00:03:44,037 Those are some of the entrance structures. 41 00:03:44,817 --> 00:03:48,507 And then there were culverts, historic culverts, which are. 42 00:03:48,822 --> 00:03:49,992 Amazing, actually. 43 00:03:50,022 --> 00:03:50,652 Beautiful. 44 00:03:50,862 --> 00:03:58,062 You know, you don't think of a culvert as being a, a work of art, but some of them were, and they're historic structures now that were built by the C, c, C. 45 00:03:58,662 --> 00:04:02,952 And then there are, were some other structures in the, what is now the north unit of the park. 46 00:04:03,492 --> 00:04:07,032 A very famous, overlooked structure at the River Bend Overlook. 47 00:04:07,512 --> 00:04:14,322 As well as some picnic structures near the campground and the Old East entrance station in the south unit. 48 00:04:14,352 --> 00:04:21,457 You mentioned the National Park Service has preserved most of those early structures, but there are a couple that are no longer there. 49 00:04:22,682 --> 00:04:23,102 Mm-Hmm. 50 00:04:23,264 --> 00:04:27,642 overlooking in the North unit is It's It is. 51 00:04:28,177 --> 00:04:28,447 Yeah. 52 00:04:29,149 --> 00:04:30,289 I consider it the. 53 00:04:31,309 --> 00:04:36,441 Most beautiful view in all of North Dakota at the River Bend Overlook in the North Unit I agree. 54 00:04:38,049 --> 00:04:43,539 Well, I understood there was some, confusion maybe early on, when the park was designated. 55 00:04:43,729 --> 00:04:51,039 was it an historic park or was it a natural park and how to manage if, if you're gonna emphasize one over the other. 56 00:04:51,829 --> 00:04:53,449 Yes, that's complicated as well. 57 00:04:53,509 --> 00:05:14,659 You know, in the early days, as I mentioned, the National Park Service didn't really think it should be a national park, and it was through the efforts of, uh, Congressman William Lemke, that that eventually happened, and it was designated as Theodore Roosevelt National Memorial Park, and it was the only National Memorial Park in the country. 58 00:05:15,289 --> 00:05:17,359 And that was a compromise because. 59 00:05:18,119 --> 00:05:36,749 It was established partially because of the association with Theodore Roosevelt, and that's how most people thought of it was sort of a historical park having to do with Theodore Roosevelt, and you have to realize that then, as now a lot of the people that are making these decisions had never been there. 60 00:05:37,289 --> 00:05:39,569 It's the same now with a lot of things that happened. 61 00:05:39,569 --> 00:05:42,869 Not parks necessarily, but all kinds of things in the country. 62 00:05:42,869 --> 00:05:49,099 The people making the decisions Don't have any firsthand knowledge of those things that they're making decisions about. 63 00:05:49,104 --> 00:05:56,989 And so in that case, it was thought that there must not be anything great there except for the association with Theodore Roosevelt. 64 00:05:56,989 --> 00:05:59,599 And so the compromise was that it was established. 65 00:06:00,344 --> 00:06:06,314 Finally, uh, in 1947 as Theodore Roosevelt National Memorial Park. 66 00:06:07,124 --> 00:06:14,864 So it wasn't a national park, but it was close, but it was the only one that was a National Memorial Park. 67 00:06:15,464 --> 00:06:21,884 And now that doesn't mean anything to those of us who worked for the National Park Service, but. 68 00:06:22,179 --> 00:06:25,539 It means something to some of the people in the country. 69 00:06:25,539 --> 00:06:35,919 They're looking to go to all the national parks that have a capital np, Mm you know, capital np, capital National Park that are not national monuments or National Lake shores or whatever. 70 00:06:36,099 --> 00:06:42,686 And then there are people that write books visiting the National Parks and Theodore Roosevelt National Memorial Park would be left out oh. 71 00:06:42,729 --> 00:06:47,649 because it wasn't a national park and it was just sort of there on its own. 72 00:06:48,489 --> 00:06:51,009 But as time went by, it. 73 00:06:51,009 --> 00:06:55,359 It became obvious that it was a Western national Park. 74 00:06:55,389 --> 00:07:08,409 Maybe not as large as Yellowstone or Glacier or Rocky Mountain, but it was a Western national park with all of the issues and all of the incredible natural resources that many of the other Western National Parks had. 75 00:07:08,739 --> 00:07:13,539 But it also had the theme relating to the history and Theodore Roosevelt. 76 00:07:14,379 --> 00:07:14,529 So. 77 00:07:15,444 --> 00:07:21,414 It was both a natural and a historic park in some ways, but overall it's a natural park. 78 00:07:21,414 --> 00:07:26,934 So it eventually, in 1978 in an omnibus bill that changed a lot of things. 79 00:07:27,534 --> 00:07:30,504 The name was changed to Theodore Roosevelt National Park. 80 00:07:31,794 --> 00:07:44,639 So, Valerie, for, uh, for folks who have not yet been to Theodore Theo, National Park, um, um, how, how helped you describe the physical physical layout? of the park? I think it's. 81 00:07:45,344 --> 00:07:48,554 One of the most beautiful places in the National Park system. 82 00:07:48,644 --> 00:07:52,394 It's consists of Badlands and Prairie in Western North Dakota. 83 00:07:53,264 --> 00:08:01,364 The park itself is about 70,448 acres, and it is in three different units. 84 00:08:01,519 --> 00:08:03,619 So the South Unit is the largest. 85 00:08:03,619 --> 00:08:09,799 It's 46,000 plus acres, and Medora is the gateway community there. 86 00:08:09,804 --> 00:08:14,779 And so a lot of people that come off Interstate 94 go to the south unit. 87 00:08:15,319 --> 00:08:20,359 They stop at the Painted Canyon overlook, they go to Medora and they drive around the loop. 88 00:08:20,809 --> 00:08:22,579 Maybe spend some more time there. 89 00:08:22,999 --> 00:08:25,729 Not as many people go to the north unit of the park. 90 00:08:26,549 --> 00:08:37,289 Which is north of Bellfield and south of Watford City on Highway 85, and the North unit is somewhat smaller, 24,000 acres. 91 00:08:38,189 --> 00:08:51,329 But the North Unit has incredible scenery because of the way the little Missouri flows through there and the deepness of the cuts and how you can go up high and look down and see for. 92 00:08:52,229 --> 00:09:04,799 A long distance, and then the Elkhorn Ranch unit is only 218 acres, and it's between the two larger units, but it has that strong cultural connection with Theodore Roosevelt. 93 00:09:05,069 --> 00:09:13,859 So each unit is different and they're all worth seeing for anyone who has that interest. 94 00:09:14,849 --> 00:09:32,749 When the park's name was changed To National Park from National Memorial Park in 1978, uh, the wilderness area in the park was also established, and that's an area where there are no vehicles and it has the highest level of protection for land in the national park system. 95 00:09:33,079 --> 00:09:41,689 So the north unit, although it's only 24,000 acres, 19,000 plus acres of that is wilderness. 96 00:09:41,779 --> 00:09:46,009 So for a backcountry experience, the North Unit is a really great place to go. 97 00:09:46,804 --> 00:09:58,444 The south unit has a little over 10,000 acres of wilderness, and that's all west of the river, not where the roads go, but the petrified forest where a lot of people wanna hike is in the wilderness. 98 00:09:59,404 --> 00:10:02,104 And so that's an important aspect of, of the park. 99 00:10:02,194 --> 00:10:09,814 And because it is three separate units, it's a little more difficult to manage than if it were one big piece. 100 00:10:10,114 --> 00:10:12,664 Right, because you have more, more border area. 101 00:10:13,294 --> 00:10:24,064 So when you're talking about issues that could occur on the border, whether it's development or energy or whatever, uh, it is a little more difficult when you have three separate units than if it's one big square. 102 00:10:25,034 --> 00:10:25,274 Yeah. 103 00:10:25,274 --> 00:10:29,869 All all tied together the little Missouri River, but, Exactly. 104 00:10:30,289 --> 00:10:32,704 The little Missouri Scenic River. 105 00:10:33,009 --> 00:10:37,869 aren't they? They're within a sea of private lands and other development. 106 00:10:38,724 --> 00:10:39,304 That's correct. 107 00:10:39,339 --> 00:10:45,064 The, the land surrounding the park is a checkerboard of private and public land. 108 00:10:45,334 --> 00:10:48,079 A lot of it is the little Missouri national grassland. 109 00:10:48,859 --> 00:10:53,269 That is managed by the US Forest Service and other parts are private. 110 00:10:53,659 --> 00:11:00,229 The little Missouri River is a state scenic river, and it does connect all three units. 111 00:11:00,234 --> 00:11:01,879 It flows through the south unit. 112 00:11:02,209 --> 00:11:11,209 It flows just to the east of the Elkhorn Ranch unit and then through a portion of the North unit and then form some of the south boundary there. 113 00:11:11,239 --> 00:11:13,369 So it's. 114 00:11:13,774 --> 00:11:18,844 It does connect the three units, although there's no road that connects the three units directly. 115 00:11:19,684 --> 00:11:28,564 But the river does, and I've canoed a lot of that territory all the way through the north unit, all the way through the south unit and from the south unit to the Elkhorn. 116 00:11:28,834 --> 00:11:39,084 And so if you can get there at the right time of year, it's also nice to float the river, in the spring is the about usually the only time, but things are always changing. 117 00:11:39,084 --> 00:11:44,754 So I have floated that river maybe as late as September, but most years may. 118 00:11:45,204 --> 00:11:52,944 June maybe is the best time, and it depends on when the breakup is with the ice and when it's safe to do. 119 00:11:53,154 --> 00:12:00,214 But when Roosevelt traveled from his, Maltese cross ranch to the Elkhorn Ranch, he often rode right along the river. 120 00:12:01,024 --> 00:12:05,104 And so you do see a lot of what he saw when you float the river today. 121 00:12:06,021 --> 00:12:17,211 Yeah, I know Edith Roosevelt mentioned in 1890, when they came, they crossed the river, I think it was 23 times in a buckboard wagon that was springless to Yeah, to the Elkhorn. 122 00:12:17,914 --> 00:12:18,724 that's correct. 123 00:12:18,724 --> 00:12:31,144 And I think that would not be very comfortable because those banks are, I mean, they have changed, obviously they change every year or so, but the banks are steep and it would be a lot of bouncing around. 124 00:12:31,144 --> 00:12:35,316 I can't think that would be very comfortable, Yeah, it's is fun. 125 00:12:36,394 --> 00:12:37,354 exactly. 126 00:12:37,834 --> 00:12:40,084 She had a lot of good insights about that. 127 00:12:40,686 --> 00:12:40,896 She did. 128 00:12:42,049 --> 00:12:42,409 I agree. 129 00:12:42,419 --> 00:12:42,714 I agree. 130 00:12:42,714 --> 00:12:47,899 I mean, to to see a, to see an area from the river changes your perspective. 131 00:12:47,899 --> 00:12:55,259 I, few A few years ago, did a a river trip with my through Missouri, from Kansas City, Louis. 132 00:12:55,264 --> 00:12:59,149 And to see the state of Missouri from the river. 133 00:12:59,429 --> 00:13:04,019 exclusively, utterly change my perception of, of that state. 134 00:13:04,319 --> 00:13:09,449 And, uh, so I, I can only imagine, I, I think that's gonna be on my bucket list now, is to. 135 00:13:09,596 --> 00:13:10,016 Mm-Hmm. 136 00:13:11,234 --> 00:13:14,234 go the length of the little Missouri River in a canoe perhaps. 137 00:13:14,749 --> 00:13:15,049 Yes. 138 00:13:15,049 --> 00:13:20,329 The problem with planning a trip like that is that you never know when the water levels are going to be adequate. 139 00:13:20,899 --> 00:13:22,519 So you have to be very flexible. 140 00:13:22,524 --> 00:13:27,529 You can't just say, okay, we'll go on May 12th and go on May 12th, because that may not work. 141 00:13:28,339 --> 00:13:33,829 So that's why it's difficult and why it's a lot easier when you actually live there. 142 00:13:33,859 --> 00:13:34,429 'cause you can. 143 00:13:35,119 --> 00:13:38,659 See when the levels are going to be good and get ready to go. 144 00:13:38,719 --> 00:13:47,264 But it's a difficult thing to plan, but many people have done it and that and rise and fall fall six six in one in one day. 145 00:13:47,284 --> 00:13:47,704 Mm-hmm. 146 00:13:48,471 --> 00:13:49,761 And it can flood too. 147 00:13:49,761 --> 00:14:00,891 And one year, one year when I was there, I was out at all hours of the day and night, five in the morning going over to Theodore Roosevelt's cabin to make sure the flood waters weren't compromising it. 148 00:14:00,896 --> 00:14:10,251 We had sandbagged it because the river came up right up to the edge of the cabin Yeah, and I was still worried about it, even though we had removed some artifacts and. 149 00:14:10,596 --> 00:14:19,016 Had it sandbag because I I, I wouldn't been able to tolerate any water getting to the cabin, but it stayed away. 150 00:14:19,016 --> 00:14:23,306 Fortunately, our sandbags held and the cabin wasn't damaged. 151 00:14:24,503 --> 00:14:28,343 And you have You have can stomp up and up, down and maybe get your knees wet. 152 00:14:29,911 --> 00:14:30,401 exactly. 153 00:14:31,696 --> 00:14:33,436 But Roosevelt described it that way. 154 00:14:33,436 --> 00:14:38,836 He described it as sometimes a raging torrent and other times a string of shallow pools. 155 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:43,216 And that is still true today because it is a free flowing river in North Dakota. 156 00:14:43,748 --> 00:15:15,471 So, in what ways has the park tried to TRS experience to the bad lands with his conservation ethic? Well, in the early days of when it was a national park, I actually worked there as a seasonal ranger and we talked about Theodore Roosevelt in the context of his cabin, but, and we did do programs about Theodore Roosevelt, but it, he didn't have quite as much of a role in the park interpretation. 157 00:15:16,461 --> 00:15:18,351 As what it's done today. 158 00:15:18,503 --> 00:15:18,623 Hmm. 159 00:15:18,711 --> 00:15:28,311 think, and maybe that's not fair to say, but new exhibits were put in around that time and in the visitor's center in the south unit and they focused a lot on Roosevelt. 160 00:15:28,851 --> 00:15:37,071 So I think prior to that time, maybe there wasn't as much about Roosevelt, but now of course that's a very important part of the park. 161 00:15:37,821 --> 00:15:53,501 So So today, I mean, how would you say that TR National TR National Park interprets experiences in the bad lands? The park concentrates mostly on his time in the Badlands and what it meant to him, and it, it meant a lot. 162 00:15:53,501 --> 00:16:00,046 Of course, as many people are aware, he grieved for his first wife while he was in the Badlands. 163 00:16:00,986 --> 00:16:10,766 It was a time when he could get to know regular people out on the range Cowboys and others that lived in areas that were rural, that were not cities that weren't in the East. 164 00:16:11,366 --> 00:16:17,426 And it was a time when he could build up his own physical strength and his mental strength after the death of his wife. 165 00:16:17,431 --> 00:16:17,456 I. 166 00:16:17,728 --> 00:16:17,788 Yeah. 167 00:16:18,851 --> 00:16:23,261 He also realized a lot of things during his time as a rancher there. 168 00:16:23,261 --> 00:16:31,481 He, he realized that the wildlife, some of the iconic wildlife such as bison and elk were disappearing fast. 169 00:16:31,721 --> 00:16:39,491 He himself had first gone to the North Dakota Badlands in 1883 to shoot a buffalo because he heard that was one of the last places. 170 00:16:40,001 --> 00:16:50,171 Where there were small groups of bisons still around, and not long after that, there weren't any, and the elk were disappearing or were virtually gone from the area. 171 00:16:50,201 --> 00:17:01,031 When he ranched there and he was seeing that even the pronghorn and deer were in short supply, and he loved the wildlife because he was a hunter. 172 00:17:01,361 --> 00:17:05,321 And he cared very much about their existence and he didn't want them to disappear. 173 00:17:05,651 --> 00:17:13,871 He didn't want others to not have that experience to see or to hunt them, and so that was something that became very obvious during his time there. 174 00:17:13,901 --> 00:17:24,731 He also intuitively knew that the level of grazing that was happening in the Badlands and other places in the West at that time was not sustainable. 175 00:17:25,188 --> 00:17:25,478 Yeah. 176 00:17:25,811 --> 00:17:37,481 He, he didn't have to be a long-term rancher to realize that it wouldn't take much for it, it to not hold, 'cause the, the grass was being depleted so fast. 177 00:17:37,676 --> 00:17:38,096 Mm-Hmm. 178 00:17:38,448 --> 00:17:38,738 Yeah. 179 00:17:39,723 --> 00:17:50,791 So With the park today, what's what's the annual visitation? Well, the visitation has increased a lot and so I don't know the current. 180 00:17:51,826 --> 00:17:55,246 Numbers, but it has increased a lot in the last 40 years. 181 00:17:55,246 --> 00:17:59,596 It's increased a lot in the last five years, and a lot of that was the covid effect. 182 00:17:59,596 --> 00:18:00,946 During the pandemic. 183 00:18:01,186 --> 00:18:15,616 A lot of people went to national parks and those numbers have stayed up and a lot of national parks, people were trying to get outside, get away from crowds, get away from urban areas, and so the numbers are high, much higher than they were even when I worked there. 184 00:18:17,606 --> 00:18:33,416 Uh, So does what does the typical, look like to Theodore the Roosevelt National Park versus perhaps, what what should the park traveler to National national uh, be certain to try to try to experience? they're in the bad lands? I. 185 00:18:34,861 --> 00:18:36,241 It really depends on the person. 186 00:18:36,241 --> 00:18:42,181 The nice thing about national parks is each person can enjoy the part of it that is the most important to them. 187 00:18:42,766 --> 00:18:54,076 So some people drive along the interstate and they stop at a painted canyon overlook and they look out and maybe they drive down into the town of Medora and take the loop, drive around and then leave. 188 00:18:54,076 --> 00:18:56,056 And they're there for maybe two to three hours. 189 00:18:56,686 --> 00:19:09,676 And then there's others that stay in the campground for a week and take many hikes and, and explore the area or people that come just to canoe the river through the park or that come to backpack in the wilderness area. 190 00:19:10,981 --> 00:19:18,751 And that's a, an important component of the park, that there is designated wilderness in both the north and south units of Theodore Roosevelt National Park. 191 00:19:19,021 --> 00:19:19,441 Mm-Hmm. 192 00:19:20,271 --> 00:19:21,666 It's still a place where you can. 193 00:19:22,871 --> 00:19:25,151 You can get Get away from pretty easily. 194 00:19:25,163 --> 00:19:25,583 Mm-Hmm. 195 00:19:25,871 --> 00:19:31,931 I mean, I've found you get away from that, that paved loop there in the south, uh, park. 196 00:19:31,931 --> 00:19:39,966 And you, you venture into the trail a little bit and you can suddenly find yourself, um, pretty, pretty alone. 197 00:19:40,061 --> 00:19:41,531 the Solitude of the bad lands. 198 00:19:41,531 --> 00:19:43,896 If, uh, if you're just willing to to invest. 199 00:19:44,051 --> 00:19:44,771 hour's walk. 200 00:19:44,771 --> 00:19:45,191 It seems like. 201 00:19:46,291 --> 00:19:55,681 That is very true in a lot of parks, and it's definitely true in Theodore Roosevelt National Park, but even on the road, it's not as crowded as a lot of the western parks can be. 202 00:19:55,901 --> 00:19:56,321 Mm-Hmm. 203 00:19:56,491 --> 00:19:58,321 So it is a great place to visit. 204 00:19:58,638 --> 00:20:00,768 Unless you run into a bison traffic jam. 205 00:20:02,551 --> 00:20:04,561 There are bison, traffic jams. 206 00:20:05,396 --> 00:20:07,681 But you just need to learn how to deal with those. 207 00:20:07,798 --> 00:20:08,158 yeah. 208 00:20:08,728 --> 00:20:14,768 I enjoy I enjoy watching them and we've had a few walk toward the automobile and. 209 00:20:15,518 --> 00:20:17,708 The look on both of our faces is okay. 210 00:20:17,708 --> 00:20:23,116 Do we back up? What do we do? Do we? So. 211 00:20:23,504 --> 00:20:29,224 So you I know you retired as the superintendent of of Theodore National Park. 212 00:20:29,346 --> 00:20:30,244 were there from You were there from. 213 00:20:30,491 --> 00:20:31,776 to 2014. 214 00:20:32,706 --> 00:20:38,709 And would you like to describe Describe, career with the National at National Park. 215 00:20:38,831 --> 00:20:45,034 you do now? Well, I might start a little bit before that as it relates to Theodore Roosevelt National Park. 216 00:20:45,724 --> 00:20:51,904 My parents and I would go on summer vacations like many people do, usually for two weeks. 217 00:20:52,294 --> 00:21:02,464 And we never talked specifically about wanting to see all the national parks or going to national parks, but we went to places that we thought would be interesting. 218 00:21:02,469 --> 00:21:03,004 My parents. 219 00:21:03,649 --> 00:21:04,399 Wanted to go there. 220 00:21:04,399 --> 00:21:07,129 They wanted to take me there, and they seemed to be mostly national parks. 221 00:21:07,129 --> 00:21:10,369 When I think back on it, we went to a lot of of them. 222 00:21:10,369 --> 00:21:30,679 And so in 1973, we took a trip that went through Wyoming and cut through the corner of Nebraska, went up to the South Dakota Badlands and Mount Rushmore, and then we went to Theodore Roosevelt National Park and we started to take the Loop Road from Medora. 223 00:21:31,879 --> 00:21:46,219 And for some reason my mother didn't like it and we didn't get very far, I think maybe three or four miles into the park and she says, I don't wanna do this, I wanna turn around. 224 00:21:46,249 --> 00:21:54,589 And so my dad turned around and we left, and then we went high up Highway 85 towards the north unit. 225 00:21:54,949 --> 00:21:56,269 And I remember. 226 00:21:57,094 --> 00:22:01,714 Like craning my neck to look in and try to see what I could see of the north unit from the road. 227 00:22:02,644 --> 00:22:10,534 And I was very disappointed 'cause I thought it was absolutely fascinating and I thought, oh well that's all right. 228 00:22:10,564 --> 00:22:11,854 I'll just come back here someday. 229 00:22:13,329 --> 00:22:13,449 I. 230 00:22:14,224 --> 00:22:18,694 And we went on and stayed the night somewhere in Montana or whatever. 231 00:22:18,724 --> 00:22:28,924 And anyway, so it was just about six years later when I was reading a catalog from the Student Conservation Association, which is a nonprofit that matches, I. 232 00:22:29,549 --> 00:22:36,899 Volunteers in national parks and other natural areas, and I was looking at the various jobs available for the summer. 233 00:22:36,899 --> 00:22:41,849 It's a volunteer job, but they would pay a stipend and transportation so you didn't lose money. 234 00:22:42,659 --> 00:22:48,149 And I saw jobs listed for Theodore Roosevelt National Park and I said, that's it. 235 00:22:48,989 --> 00:22:51,449 And I applied and you could apply to four. 236 00:22:51,449 --> 00:22:54,929 And I put that as my first choice and I got a call. 237 00:22:56,299 --> 00:23:02,989 And the supervisor said, you're the first person that's ever put it as their first choice and we wanna hire you. 238 00:23:04,669 --> 00:23:09,649 And so I went out there in the summer of 1979 as an SCA volunteer. 239 00:23:09,649 --> 00:23:16,279 We work right alongside the interpretive rangers giving programs and, and working in the visitor center and such. 240 00:23:16,279 --> 00:23:17,569 And I spent my summer there. 241 00:23:18,379 --> 00:23:23,089 And then my goal was to go back as a paid ranger, which I did in the summers of. 242 00:23:23,764 --> 00:23:24,964 1980 and 81. 243 00:23:26,494 --> 00:23:38,824 And then I had applied to graduate school in North Dakota because I was in North Dakota and I got an amazing offer from the University of North Dakota for a fellowship to do research in the North Dakota Badlands. 244 00:23:39,514 --> 00:23:45,544 So I did my some ecological research in and around the park for two more summers. 245 00:23:46,414 --> 00:23:48,694 So I have a long history with the park and. 246 00:23:49,099 --> 00:23:57,559 Various different roles as a student conservation association, volunteer, a seasonal ranger as a researcher. 247 00:23:57,559 --> 00:24:03,349 I even worked for the theater, Roosevelt Nature and History Association, the Cooperating Association for a short time. 248 00:24:03,949 --> 00:24:09,769 So I had that background and I had this idea that I wanted to be a wildlife biologist. 249 00:24:09,769 --> 00:24:12,259 And there are of course wildlife biologists in. 250 00:24:13,504 --> 00:24:16,594 In the national parks, including Theodore Roosevelt National Park. 251 00:24:16,594 --> 00:24:18,994 But back in the 1980s, there were not many. 252 00:24:19,684 --> 00:24:27,274 And so I studied wildlife biology, but I realized in graduate school that that's not what I wanted to do. 253 00:24:28,054 --> 00:24:35,854 And so when I graduated, I wanted to get a job with the National Park Service and work in interpretation with the public 'cause that's what I really enjoyed. 254 00:24:37,744 --> 00:24:48,754 So what started at Theodore Roosevelt National Park took me to a variety of other parks throughout the Western United States, and I worked in Colorado National Monument. 255 00:24:48,754 --> 00:24:51,964 I worked for the Corps of Engineers in California for a little while. 256 00:24:52,504 --> 00:25:02,884 I worked at Oregon Pipe, cactus National Monument in Arizona on the Mexican border at Battle Lands National Park in South Dakota for quite a long time, seven years. 257 00:25:03,694 --> 00:25:22,194 I did a special assignment at Petrified Forest National Park and then went to Big Bend National Park in Texas on the Mexican border, and then I got to be a superintendent in some other parks that I liked very much in Western Nebraska. 258 00:25:23,034 --> 00:25:27,474 Scotts Bluff, national Monument and Agate Fossil Beds National Monument. 259 00:25:28,181 --> 00:25:28,601 Wow. 260 00:25:28,614 --> 00:25:32,274 the job for Theodore Roosevelt opened up, it just seemed like the right thing to do. 261 00:25:32,274 --> 00:25:34,344 So I applied and I got that job too. 262 00:25:35,304 --> 00:25:38,394 They don't move us around US Park rangers or superintendents. 263 00:25:38,394 --> 00:25:40,644 We have to apply and compete for all the jobs. 264 00:25:40,914 --> 00:25:43,794 So it was like a homecoming, really. 265 00:25:43,884 --> 00:25:46,404 So I had been gone for about 20 years. 266 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:52,779 From living in North Dakota and came back as superintendent at the same park where I started my career as a volunteer. 267 00:25:53,111 --> 00:25:53,801 Wow. 268 00:25:53,829 --> 00:26:02,289 the symmetry to that, and after that it was hard for me to really wanna go anywhere else because I felt like it was a full circle thing. 269 00:26:02,289 --> 00:26:05,619 And I had a lot of investment in Theodore Roosevelt National Park. 270 00:26:06,009 --> 00:26:15,309 I cared about the park very much, and so I stayed until I decided to retire at a fairly young age because. 271 00:26:15,684 --> 00:26:20,754 I wanted to do other things, so I, I was there for 11 and a half years as superintendent. 272 00:26:20,876 --> 00:26:21,386 Wow. 273 00:26:22,099 --> 00:26:22,429 Yeah. 274 00:26:22,459 --> 00:26:25,256 That's amazing to, to start and finish a, Yes. 275 00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:28,759 career with the park service in, in that same place. 276 00:26:28,849 --> 00:26:29,299 Yeah. 277 00:26:29,419 --> 00:26:30,589 That that a imagine you. 278 00:26:30,861 --> 00:26:31,151 Yeah. 279 00:26:31,369 --> 00:26:31,909 Yeah. 280 00:26:32,484 --> 00:26:33,954 I did, I do love it. 281 00:26:33,954 --> 00:26:34,344 Yeah. 282 00:26:35,004 --> 00:26:36,079 You know, there were some, but. 283 00:26:36,984 --> 00:26:42,504 Uh, since that was the first park I ever worked in, I always kind of judged other parks by that one. 284 00:26:43,134 --> 00:26:46,696 Uh, whether it was their signs or, Mm-Hmm. 285 00:26:46,704 --> 00:26:51,804 uh, the trails or anything, I sort of looked at that as ideal in some ways. 286 00:26:51,809 --> 00:27:04,464 And so it was really great to come back and to be able to manage that park as well as the other two National Park service areas in North Dakota, Fort Union Trading, post National Historic site and Knife River Indian Villages, national Historic site. 287 00:27:06,644 --> 00:27:13,709 Being Superintendent That it sounds like a, a pretty pretty management, job, and I'm sure there's a complex plan plan. 288 00:27:13,714 --> 00:27:27,199 That goes that what? were some of the specific issues that, that you addressed during your, tenure as superintendent at TR National Park? Being a park service superintendent I think is a lot like being a mayor of a town. 289 00:27:27,994 --> 00:27:32,584 You have divisions, you have a, a maintenance or facility management division. 290 00:27:32,584 --> 00:27:36,994 You have a protection division, which includes law enforcement and emergency services. 291 00:27:36,994 --> 00:27:46,564 You have an interpretation division, which includes, uh, education, and then you have resource management, cultural and natural. 292 00:27:46,564 --> 00:27:51,184 And then you have administration, which of course makes everything come together. 293 00:27:51,189 --> 00:27:51,784 And so. 294 00:27:52,489 --> 00:28:01,399 Uh, it's, it's a lot like that and there's a lot of different balls in the air all the time, and it's really hard to plan because there are a lot of things coming in every day. 295 00:28:01,404 --> 00:28:07,579 You never know what's gonna happen if someone's gonna be lost in the park or there's gonna be a bison out of the fence or who knows what. 296 00:28:07,849 --> 00:28:09,709 So it's something a little different every day. 297 00:28:10,129 --> 00:28:17,569 But a lot of it is about having a great team of people that work together to achieve the overall goals of the park. 298 00:28:18,499 --> 00:28:20,119 And when I was there. 299 00:28:20,644 --> 00:28:40,589 Even though I was there a long time, I felt a little bit like I had three different jobs because the first few years, maybe from 2003 to 2007, the park was very focused on acquiring some land across from Theodore Roosevelt's, Elkhorn Ranch, the ranchers that owned it. 300 00:28:40,909 --> 00:28:47,989 Really wanted to sell it and they wanted to sell it to the National park because that too was part of Theodore Roosevelt's ranch. 301 00:28:47,989 --> 00:28:57,869 He ranched on both sides of the river and the park service site On the, west side of the river is only 218 acres and they had about 5,200 acres. 302 00:28:58,476 --> 00:28:58,696 Wow. 303 00:28:59,054 --> 00:29:00,224 Where he would've ranched. 304 00:29:00,224 --> 00:29:06,494 And so that seems like an easy thing when you have a willing seller and a interested buyer. 305 00:29:06,494 --> 00:29:07,574 But it didn't become easy. 306 00:29:07,579 --> 00:29:08,684 It became very political. 307 00:29:08,684 --> 00:29:19,184 It went on a long time, and eventually the way it ended up was that the US Forest Service purchased that property and that protected it from many of the threats that we. 308 00:29:19,949 --> 00:29:25,139 We concerned might impact the Elkhorn Ranch Unit at Theore Roosevelt National Park. 309 00:29:26,159 --> 00:29:30,929 And then after that we had an issue having to do with elk management. 310 00:29:31,529 --> 00:29:37,139 As the elk population grew, we started planning to come up with some ways to reduce that population. 311 00:29:37,794 --> 00:29:39,054 In, in the park. 312 00:29:39,174 --> 00:29:44,304 And so that was probably, it overlapped with the Eberts ranch or the issue. 313 00:29:44,304 --> 00:29:52,134 But from 2004 to 2011, really there was a long planning process and then implementation of some elk reduction. 314 00:29:53,094 --> 00:29:53,514 Mm-Hmm. 315 00:29:53,574 --> 00:30:04,464 towards the end of my time there from starting two, 2010 until 2014, as everyone knows, we had an oil boom in Western North Dakota. 316 00:30:04,914 --> 00:30:07,194 And so that was something we had to keep an eye on. 317 00:30:08,224 --> 00:30:09,624 Yeah, so you So you were there. 318 00:30:09,819 --> 00:30:25,829 really when the, the Balkan boom and did you Did you talk about any particular uh, issues you you had? dealing with the resource Resource extraction industries? you know, the threat obviously to the management. 319 00:30:25,834 --> 00:30:27,394 Particularly of the Elkhorn perhaps. 320 00:30:28,854 --> 00:30:29,334 Right. 321 00:30:29,544 --> 00:30:32,934 Our goal was to protect the park. 322 00:30:33,754 --> 00:30:45,334 The park service has nothing against well development, and obviously that was happening, but during a boom, a lot of things are done in ways that are not well planned, and so we had to make sure that. 323 00:30:46,309 --> 00:30:58,144 Uh, drilling or something else wouldn't happen right on the boundary of the park where it would affect the scenic views for the next 20 years or, or do some damage to core values of the park. 324 00:30:58,474 --> 00:31:06,944 So we had to keep apprised of, whatever specific proposals there were that might affect any of the three units of the park. 325 00:31:07,274 --> 00:31:10,784 And there were some that would've been devastating, but. 326 00:31:11,294 --> 00:31:19,634 In many cases, we were able to work with the oil companies or the energy companies themselves and avert any kind of disaster there. 327 00:31:20,324 --> 00:31:31,304 And so just as an example, in North Dakota in 2012, there were 370 drilling rigs at the same time. 328 00:31:32,294 --> 00:31:34,394 And right now there's 37. 329 00:31:35,339 --> 00:31:36,959 Approximately in North Dakota. 330 00:31:37,439 --> 00:31:40,529 So 10 times as many we're drilling then as now. 331 00:31:41,099 --> 00:31:52,589 And so it's not so much how many wells are out there pumping, but it's the drilling that where they put in a a big infrastructure that could affect the parks, scenic views and sounds. 332 00:31:53,339 --> 00:32:00,059 So yes, we did work a lot on that with the state and also with other. 333 00:32:01,064 --> 00:32:08,594 Agencies and with the energy companies themselves, to try to prevent any negative impacts on the park. 334 00:32:09,311 --> 00:32:09,601 Damn. 335 00:32:11,176 --> 00:32:11,506 Wow. 336 00:32:11,889 --> 00:32:30,309 you know, particularly when you're the Elkhorn, it, uh, you know, that being Roosevelt's, uh, home base, uh, for much of the time that he's in the Badlands and, and, uh, what a unique place that is and how important that that view shed and the soundscape. 337 00:32:30,399 --> 00:32:40,919 There is I, I, I didn't experience the Elkhorn at the height of the, of the boom with all of the traffic going by, but I certainly read a number of the editorials. 338 00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:45,569 Um, it sounded pretty dire for a while, but that seems to have improved. 339 00:32:45,569 --> 00:32:46,999 Would you say now Yes. 340 00:32:47,259 --> 00:32:51,119 Our main goal was to not have drilling. 341 00:32:52,269 --> 00:32:54,721 Apparatus visible from the park, Mm-Hmm. 342 00:32:55,139 --> 00:32:59,969 the Elkhorn, but any part of the park really, and at least not in CLOs proximity. 343 00:32:59,974 --> 00:33:02,309 And then also the sound at the Elkhorn. 344 00:33:02,309 --> 00:33:17,459 The sound is very important because when you go out there and you walk the short trail and you sit where Theodore Roosevelt's home was there, it sounds and looks very much like it did in 1885 when he was there. 345 00:33:18,449 --> 00:33:21,899 You still hear the same warning doves that he wrote about. 346 00:33:22,619 --> 00:33:27,239 You hear the woodpeckers, you hear the wind and the cottonwood trees. 347 00:33:27,239 --> 00:33:30,809 Some of those trees were there even during his time. 348 00:33:31,859 --> 00:33:33,449 You see and hear the river. 349 00:33:34,304 --> 00:33:40,424 You don't wanna hear a generator or a a, a pump or something like that. 350 00:33:40,454 --> 00:34:03,014 So we wanted to keep the elk horn free of that, and there were a few times when it was not, but for the most part, that was achieved because it is such a small unit of 218 acres, it was harder to protect the boundaries than when you have a larger unit like the south unit, which is 46,000 acres. 351 00:34:04,449 --> 00:34:04,959 We had. 352 00:34:06,196 --> 00:34:08,086 We've mentioned it in other podcast that. 353 00:34:09,406 --> 00:34:12,106 To me, it's To, it's almost like right there. 354 00:34:12,226 --> 00:34:16,669 To keep to keep that to sacred, to keep it from from being disturbed. 355 00:34:17,176 --> 00:34:19,064 It's It's a very special place. 356 00:34:19,126 --> 00:34:19,426 Yeah. 357 00:34:20,019 --> 00:34:28,331 I've gone there a hundred times and back in the 1980s it was a very hard place to get to Mm-Hmm. 358 00:34:29,054 --> 00:34:30,494 was no improved road there. 359 00:34:31,784 --> 00:34:40,514 Most people that did go there and there weren't very many, would go from the other side of the river and then walk across the river to get to the Elkhorn Ranch. 360 00:34:41,084 --> 00:34:52,274 And even when I arrived there in 2003 as superintendent, there was a sign on the fence that said Department of Interior, but there was nothing really identifying it as the Elkhorn Ranch. 361 00:34:52,724 --> 00:34:55,244 So fortunately we were able to work with others. 362 00:34:55,244 --> 00:34:57,374 We got some money for exhibits and. 363 00:34:57,959 --> 00:35:13,469 We put up a sign there at the entrance that said Elkhorn Ranch Unit, and then a limited number of appropriate interpretive signs along the trail that goes towards Theodore Roosevelt's cabin site so that people could learn about it while they were there. 364 00:35:13,979 --> 00:35:23,579 But we were very careful in placing those, and we don't want infrastructure from anyone else or from the National Park Service to affect. 365 00:35:24,479 --> 00:35:37,279 Those views and sounds of the Elkhorn, that was always the, the goal when I was there, A friend, uh, Rolf Sletten, who was recently on an episode talking about Roosevelt's ranches. 366 00:35:37,294 --> 00:35:40,504 I, I, I like the way he, he described you, he said the elk. 367 00:35:40,969 --> 00:35:46,489 uh, today is essentially as Roosevelt found it, and not as he left it in the 1890s. 368 00:35:46,489 --> 00:35:49,489 You go there today and you, you essentially see. 369 00:35:50,634 --> 00:35:56,089 the way it was when, when Roosevelt First scouted it out it out the construction construction. 370 00:35:56,274 --> 00:35:56,664 there. 371 00:35:57,954 --> 00:35:58,734 That is true. 372 00:35:58,794 --> 00:36:09,564 The river has moved a little bit to the east just from natural changes, and the cottonwood forest has moved a little bit. 373 00:36:10,084 --> 00:36:15,034 the small trees in his day are now the large trees and then there's small trees out beyond them. 374 00:36:15,034 --> 00:36:16,384 It's very fascinating really. 375 00:36:16,414 --> 00:36:21,064 'cause you can see the flood patterns of the river when looking at the cottonwoods. 376 00:36:21,574 --> 00:36:23,224 There's a little more juniper in the area. 377 00:36:23,229 --> 00:36:26,104 There wasn't juniper in the area when Theodore Roosevelt was there. 378 00:36:26,109 --> 00:36:30,964 That's a, a plant that's native, but it tends to increase without fire. 379 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:32,099 Oh, okay. 380 00:36:32,344 --> 00:36:37,324 some things have changed, but for the most part, it's very much like it was in Roosevelt's time. 381 00:36:38,194 --> 00:36:40,866 And he would recognize that I'm quite sure, Oh yeah. 382 00:36:42,309 --> 00:36:49,014 I was reading the, the history of the park, where it, it, apparently the idea was floated in the in the. 383 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:49,719 that a. 384 00:36:50,124 --> 00:36:59,694 That, uh, the Elkhorn would be developed and reconstructed with all the cabin and the outbuildings and, and, uh, turn it into essentially a living history area. 385 00:37:00,414 --> 00:37:04,074 Um, commercialized it sounds like. 386 00:37:04,074 --> 00:37:13,334 And I think anybody who goes there today is so grateful that the Park Service,, did not proceed with, with that kind of a plan. 387 00:37:14,389 --> 00:37:18,019 There were many ideas for the Elkhorn Ranch starting at the very beginning. 388 00:37:18,604 --> 00:37:30,484 But fortunately some of those didn't materialize, and I'm very for very glad that it's the way it is today so that people can go out there and experience it the way that Roosevelt experienced it. 389 00:37:30,484 --> 00:37:36,545 If they really wanna learn about how the Badlands shaped Theodore Roosevelt, that is the place to go. 390 00:37:37,131 --> 00:37:37,431 Yeah. 391 00:37:38,254 --> 00:37:39,484 Leave it as it is, right. 392 00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:40,899 Man. 393 00:37:40,959 --> 00:37:41,859 Can only mar it. 394 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:42,919 Yeah. 395 00:37:44,539 --> 00:37:47,289 Well, I, before I I forget, I wanted to circle back. 396 00:37:47,394 --> 00:37:49,359 You talked about originally, here. 397 00:37:49,579 --> 00:37:58,344 The idea was that might end up to be a wildlife wildlife biologist, uh, what you are you are trained as a as a biologist, with, with your undergrad and master's. 398 00:37:58,374 --> 00:38:01,574 Uh, I was wondering if you could talk about some of the original wildlife. 399 00:38:01,764 --> 00:38:11,214 that tr would've, would've, uh, known in the bad lands and, and maybe some of the animals that, that, uh, that the park actively manages today. 400 00:38:12,914 --> 00:38:13,184 Right. 401 00:38:13,184 --> 00:38:19,904 Well, of course when Roosevelt was there, the bison and the elk were mostly, if not totally gone. 402 00:38:20,534 --> 00:38:26,714 There were white-tailed deer and mule deer as there are now, and some pronghorn, although in decreased numbers. 403 00:38:27,614 --> 00:38:36,254 And so when the park was established, most of those animals were around, but the bison were gone and the elk were gone. 404 00:38:37,604 --> 00:38:40,754 And black-footed ferrets and a few other species. 405 00:38:41,354 --> 00:38:55,814 But the park wanted to actively restore bison to the area because that seemed pretty important for a, a natural park that has wonderful habitat for bison and also because of the Roosevelt connection. 406 00:38:55,819 --> 00:38:58,589 And so in 1954. 407 00:39:00,584 --> 00:39:15,794 They started to fence the south unit in anticipation of reintroducing bison there, and that happened in 1956 with 29 bison that came from the Fort Rera National Wildlife Refuge in Nebraska. 408 00:39:16,889 --> 00:39:19,559 And then those numbers increased naturally. 409 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:22,679 And in 1962, they moved some of them to the north unit. 410 00:39:23,189 --> 00:39:28,739 And ever since then, both the south unit and north units of the park have had bison there. 411 00:39:28,744 --> 00:39:31,289 And people expect to see them when they come to the park. 412 00:39:31,979 --> 00:39:36,689 They do, however, require management because they have no native predators left. 413 00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:43,139 There are no wolves and there are no grizzly bears, and they are in an enclosed area. 414 00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:45,149 They are not supposed to go outside the fence. 415 00:39:45,839 --> 00:40:05,129 It does happen once in a while, but they are confined to the park and so they do take some active management, so that is done by rounding them up and shipping them to partners and cooperators, primarily Native American tribes. 416 00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:23,784 Well, for folks who who haven't been to Theodore Roosevelt National Park, what does Does that, what does what does it require to keep a bison And, and, uh, once you're inside the park? um, as a A visitor? What are the rules of engagement with the bison? Yeah. 417 00:40:23,784 --> 00:40:30,219 The, the bison don't stay in with barbed wire, so there is a woven wire fence. 418 00:40:31,119 --> 00:40:50,139 Eight feet around, I think it's eight feet tall around the park, then that mostly keeps the bison inside at Theodore Roosevelt National Park, they are allowed to roam throughout the entire park except for in Medora in the area south of Interstate 94. 419 00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:56,229 And so they could be anywhere throughout most of the park and people just need to learn. 420 00:40:56,604 --> 00:40:57,564 How to deal with them. 421 00:40:57,564 --> 00:41:02,814 And so we do warn people about that the bison could come in the campground and they do. 422 00:41:03,384 --> 00:41:12,714 They could come to your back country tent when you're back backpacking, or uh, you may encounter one when you're on a hike when you least expect it. 423 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,484 So you have to be wary about that. 424 00:41:15,264 --> 00:41:17,304 And they are very dangerous animals. 425 00:41:17,874 --> 00:41:24,024 But the number of encounters or dangerous encounters that happen are, is pretty small. 426 00:41:24,969 --> 00:41:25,719 Considering. 427 00:41:25,809 --> 00:41:30,009 Yeah, So you'd mentioned the elk numbers. 428 00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:40,474 The time that you were superintendent, the managing managing, the elk, what, what year were the, uh, elk reintroduced into the park or about the time period at least, and. 429 00:41:40,904 --> 00:41:41,234 yeah. 430 00:41:41,234 --> 00:41:45,224 The elk were returned in March of 1985. 431 00:41:45,644 --> 00:41:49,844 They brought some from Wind Cave National Park, and that at the time. 432 00:41:50,624 --> 00:42:03,704 People weren't sure how they would do there, whether they would take hold or not, and I'm not really sure why both the state and the National Park Service weren't sure because it's really great habitat for elk. 433 00:42:03,786 --> 00:42:04,076 Yeah. 434 00:42:04,304 --> 00:42:09,104 We think of elk as being animals of the mountains, like the grizzly bears. 435 00:42:09,524 --> 00:42:17,864 But elk and grizzly bears were great plains animals really? And they are in the, in the mountains today because that's where they're forced to be because. 436 00:42:18,929 --> 00:42:21,989 On the plains, we have farms and cities and such. 437 00:42:21,989 --> 00:42:25,139 And so, uh, it's great habitat for elk. 438 00:42:25,229 --> 00:42:27,209 And they did very, very well. 439 00:42:27,509 --> 00:42:35,819 And so a couple of times in 1993, and again in 2000, the park did round up some elk the way they did with the bison. 440 00:42:35,909 --> 00:42:40,829 It wasn't the best situation, but it did work and was. 441 00:42:41,294 --> 00:42:45,904 The park was able to keep the elk population at manageable levels. 442 00:42:46,204 --> 00:42:49,354 And also the idea was that the elk would go out of the park too. 443 00:42:49,354 --> 00:42:57,454 Unlike the bison, they would move in and out and they could be hunted and they would go out on private and federal land surrounding the park. 444 00:42:58,124 --> 00:43:04,124 And so the elk population is managed and they do go in and out of the park and they are hunted in North Dakota. 445 00:43:04,819 --> 00:43:04,939 I. 446 00:43:04,989 --> 00:43:08,949 Your your role with Theodore Theodore Roosevelt? had Dr. 447 00:43:08,949 --> 00:43:11,289 Chris O'Brien, the director on recently. 448 00:43:11,707 --> 00:43:17,507 Recently, How did how did get that get started for you? it taken you? Yes. 449 00:43:17,647 --> 00:43:25,432 My role in that huge project of the Theodore Roosevelt Center, trying to digitize everything from to and about Theodore Roosevelt. 450 00:43:26,182 --> 00:43:29,632 Is a very small role, but it's a fun one for me. 451 00:43:30,292 --> 00:43:42,532 And early on in the process of figuring out what the Theodore Roosevelt Center would digitize, we did have people that digitized the collections at Theodore Roosevelt National Park, and then we. 452 00:43:43,027 --> 00:43:50,887 The TR Center started working with the other national parks dedicated to Theodore Roosevelt and doing digitization there. 453 00:43:51,727 --> 00:44:01,747 And at one point, a ranger from Grand Canyon mentioned to Clay Jenkinson, who was very involved in the early stages of the Theodore Roosevelt Center. 454 00:44:01,752 --> 00:44:04,704 And he said, you know, we have some things at Grand Canyon, Hmm. 455 00:44:04,957 --> 00:44:07,027 and that made us think that. 456 00:44:07,867 --> 00:44:22,687 All of the parks that Theodore Roosevelt proclaimed as monuments, or that he has were established during his presidency, of which there are 23, that there may be interesting things in the collections of those parks that relate to Theodore Roosevelt. 457 00:44:23,722 --> 00:44:41,032 So when I retired, I wrote a little proposal to the Theodore Roosevelt Center that that would be a job that I could do, that I could go to the 23 National Parks and monuments that Theodore Roosevelt established, and I could work with the curators and I could. 458 00:44:41,827 --> 00:44:47,767 See what they might have in their collections, their archives, that would be of interest to the Theodore Roosevelt Center. 459 00:44:47,947 --> 00:44:52,417 And I've been doing that ever since because it's not a job that is a full-time job. 460 00:44:52,417 --> 00:44:53,707 It's very, very part-time. 461 00:44:53,857 --> 00:44:56,137 And they don't pay my travel. 462 00:44:56,137 --> 00:45:02,767 So it's not like I go from one to another right away, but I travel constantly on my own. 463 00:45:02,767 --> 00:45:03,997 And while I'm doing that. 464 00:45:04,582 --> 00:45:08,432 I go to the parks, and uh, get their information. 465 00:45:08,432 --> 00:45:16,432 So it's taken me a while, but I'm finished with 22, outta 23 of those parks now, and it's been very interesting. 466 00:45:17,112 --> 00:45:28,527 In future episodes, uh, about those 23 parks and monuments, uh, that were established by tr Could you, what can we expect to hear about? Yeah, I could tell you a lot about them. 467 00:45:28,527 --> 00:45:30,057 I've learned a lot about those parks. 468 00:45:30,062 --> 00:45:34,047 Many of them I had visited before, but some I had not. 469 00:45:34,107 --> 00:45:36,087 And so it was great for me to go. 470 00:45:36,717 --> 00:45:39,597 With Theodore Roosevelt in mind and look through the collections. 471 00:45:39,597 --> 00:45:43,287 And sometimes that takes a couple of hours, sometimes it takes a few days. 472 00:45:43,287 --> 00:45:44,757 It really depends on the park. 473 00:45:44,847 --> 00:45:49,677 And so I'd be happy to to talk about that in a in a future episode. 474 00:45:50,307 --> 00:46:01,497 I also also thought it would be great to talk about the parks that are dedicated to Theodore Roosevelt because in addition to Theodore Roosevelt National Park, there are five other National Park areas. 475 00:46:02,862 --> 00:46:08,892 Dedicated to tr and the only other person that has the same number is Abraham Lincoln. 476 00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:09,459 Mm-Hmm. 477 00:46:10,484 --> 00:46:10,754 Yep. 478 00:46:10,902 --> 00:46:13,722 that is pretty significant really when you think about it. 479 00:46:14,802 --> 00:46:37,469 you're probably familiar with them, but there's Theodore Roosevelt birthplace in New York City, Mm-Hmm. 480 00:46:37,470 --> 00:46:37,471 Yeah. 481 00:46:37,887 --> 00:46:42,177 to Theodore Roosevelt himself, and an equal number for Lincoln. 482 00:46:44,842 --> 00:46:46,792 You go by, uh, a nickname. 483 00:46:46,792 --> 00:46:47,572 I understand. 484 00:46:48,822 --> 00:46:50,352 Oh, the National Park Vagabond. 485 00:46:50,662 --> 00:46:51,292 Yeah. 486 00:46:52,812 --> 00:46:53,502 I do. 487 00:46:53,542 --> 00:46:55,782 be ours? I, I'd love to. 488 00:46:55,842 --> 00:47:07,752 Yes, I'd, I do have a goal to go to every National Park service area in the country, and there are 426, I believe, at last count. 489 00:47:08,039 --> 00:47:08,259 Wow. 490 00:47:08,742 --> 00:47:19,552 I've been to about 353, I believe, and I have a few more to go, but I've made pretty good progress Wow. 491 00:47:19,902 --> 00:47:20,022 and. 492 00:47:20,577 --> 00:47:26,067 I mentioned earlier that what a park is called, it's not as important as some people think. 493 00:47:26,067 --> 00:47:40,047 There are 63 national parks, but over 425 National Park areas and those of us who work for the National Park Service think of them all as sort of the same. 494 00:47:40,947 --> 00:47:47,457 We, if you worked at, uh, devils Devil's Tower National Monument, I wouldn't say. 495 00:47:47,922 --> 00:47:57,702 How are things in your monument? I'd say, how are things in the park? We think of them all as parks, even the smallest ones, if they're units of the national Park system. 496 00:47:58,092 --> 00:48:09,834 And so for us, they're managed maybe a little differently based on the resources there, but they're all national parks and they're all great and they're all different Yeah. 497 00:48:09,972 --> 00:48:13,092 and they, they teach us so much about the our history. 498 00:48:14,022 --> 00:48:21,994 The history of the country, all the way from American Samoa to Alaska to the Virgin Islands, to Puerto Rico, Yeah. 499 00:48:22,692 --> 00:48:23,472 to Guam. 500 00:48:24,202 --> 00:48:31,232 Yeah, it's our national, treasure, our national, uh, inheritance as tr would say, right. 501 00:48:31,822 --> 00:48:32,812 Right, exactly. 502 00:48:32,817 --> 00:48:40,942 And so I do have the goal of seeing every one of those national park areas, and I hope to make it. 503 00:48:41,662 --> 00:48:43,462 I've made pretty good progress so far. 504 00:48:43,462 --> 00:48:53,752 I make some progress every year, and doing the project on Theodore Roosevelt has helped me to learn more about some of those parks and why they were established, and it's been very interesting., 505 00:48:55,672 --> 00:48:58,802 wait to get to the next episode when we start delving into Uh. 506 00:48:59,272 --> 00:49:05,847 parks and, and the 23 parks that were under TRS presidency. 507 00:49:05,967 --> 00:49:06,387 So. 508 00:49:07,107 --> 00:49:10,467 Valerie, this has this has been a wonderful conversation. 509 00:49:10,467 --> 00:49:14,962 We are We're so, so so grateful, uh, that you agreed to come on the the show. 510 00:49:15,827 --> 00:49:16,517 Oh, it's great. 511 00:49:16,517 --> 00:49:19,157 And I, I wish you well with your podcast. 512 00:49:19,517 --> 00:49:22,457 I've listened to every episode so far, and it's all very interesting. 513 00:49:22,819 --> 00:49:23,419 Oh, thank you. 514 00:49:24,172 --> 00:49:24,602 Thank you.